The possessive case can be confusing, especially when two nouns are doing the possessing. Fortunately, The Chicago Manual of Style sheds light on this conundrum.
Chicago says that when two nouns “possess” the same entity, only the second takes an apostrophe (‘):
my aunt and uncle’s house
Gilbert and Sullivan’s lolanthe
Minneapolis and Saint Paul’s transportation system
On the other hand, when two nouns possess different entities, both possessives take an apostrophe:
my aunt’s and uncle’s specific talents
New York’s and Chicago’s transportation systems
our friends’ and neighbors’ children
Isn’t that neat?
If any writing questions have you stumped, send them in. I’ll check them out for you.
Cheers,
Tara Treasurefield
Tara’s Writing Studio
Writing Tips 
Ahhh…this post is so informative that I find it also soothing. Conundrum solved! Thank you!
Haha, I was feeling the same response- a real sense of relief, as this has been a grammatical nuisance for me for years. I never bothered to look it up until now. Thank you for the info.
You are very welcome, Dina.
Cheers,
Tara
What about a line in a song I wrote for one of my grandchildren relating the date he was born to the date my husband and I first met. The line is as follows:
“………Born upon a fateful date in Mama and Paps’s life.”
or” …..Born upon a fateful date in Mama’s and Papa’s lives.”
or …”Born upon a fateful date in Mama’s and Papa’s life.”
Please tell me how to punctuate the following:
Boards and Commissions Members Recognition
Sandra,
Without the context, it’s hard to say. Is this the working title for an event (a recognition dinner, perhaps)? Is it a phrase you need to place in a sentence?
In any case, to get around the sibilance and the awkwardness of so many plural nouns in a row, my first impulse would be to forget about the possessive and use “of” instead, something like this:
in recognition of the members of the various boards and commissions, or
to recognize the members of the various boards and commissions
Cheers,
Tara
What about when yourself and someone else are in possesion. Do you say “me and Sarah’s house” or “Mine and Sarah’s house” or “Sarah’s and my house”?
I get very confused by that one!
Good question, William. Thank you for asking.
Briefly, the last option you suggested, “Sarah’s and my house,” is the one I would choose in this case.
For more detail, please see the October 30, 2008 post to my blog, which your question has inspired.
Cheers,
Tara
But Tara, your suggestion doesn’t follow your rule.
If your rule is right, then it should be “Sarah and my house”
Hi, Shawn.
Sarah and my house is incorrect. If Sarah and whoever “my” is share the same house, it would be “Sarah’s and my house.”
Cheers,
Tara
Thanks. This is helpful. I am writing: …little Johnny’s and little Suzy’s performance…
I think I need both possessives because they are performing separately in school.
Now I’m wondering if I should use the world “performances?” hmmm…
Exactly right, Anita. According to the Chicago Manual of Style, it’s “. . . little Johnny’s and little Suzy’s performances.”
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!
Good to hear from you, Maria. I’m happy to help.
Tara
How about this one?
Parker’s Writer’s Notebook
Is that correct? Can you have two possessives in a row?
Thanks!
Yes, I believe it is.
According to Chicago Manual of Style 15th edition, section 5.26, “The possessive of a title or name is formed by adding ‘s {Lloyd’s of London’s records}.”
Cheers,
Tara
Which is correct?
the College’s associate’s degree programs
or
the College’s associate degree programs
I regret the delayed response, Cherie. I hope this isn’t too late to be helpful to you.
I gather that your question refers to a particular college. In that case, I’d want to stick with the usage the college has selected, whether it’s “associate’s degree programs” or “associate degree programs.”
If the college uses associate degree programs, just do what you already did:
But if the college uses associate’s degree programs, I’d probably avoid the double quotation by putting it like this:
You have probably noticed that I changed College to college. This is called “down” style, in which proper names are capitalized, but many words derived from or associated with proper names are lowercased. Here’s an example from the Chicago Manual of Style, 15th edition:
If you have any other questions, please don’t hesitate to write again. I’ll try to be more prompt next time!
Warm regards,
Tara
How do idioms work? In particular, which of these is correct:
That seems up you and your wife’s alley.
That seems up your and your wife’s alley.
There’s no real ‘alley’, so the guidelines with respect to possession don’t apply.
Hi, Marc.
Interesting example! Thank you for offering it.
This option is correct: That seems up your and your wife’s alley.
In the first instance, the possessive pronoun your modifies alley, and in the second instance, your modifies the possessive noun wife’s, which in turn modifies alley.
I have never come across any rule stating that the guidelines with respect to possession don’t apply to idioms. Where did you see it?
Best,
Tara
Hi Tara,
Perhaps the extra ‘your’ modifying ‘wife’ is making it confusing so this might be more clear:
That seems up you and Greg’s alley.
That seems up your and Greg’s alley.
The challenge is that there’s no real alley to assess whether possession is joint possession or not.
Hi, Marc.
Whether the alley is real or not, neither “That seems up you and your wife’s alley” nor “That seems up you and Greg’s alley” would ever be correct, because you alley doesn’t make sense.
So in this case, we’re stuck with one alley, shared by “you” and “your wife,” or by “you” and Greg.
To indicate that there are two alleys (again, whether they’re idiomatic or not), I’d change the sentence to something like this:
Or,
What do you think?
Hello,
I love your website! I have a rather confusing question. How would I punctuate “I highly value you and your colleague(‘s), John Smith(‘s), advice?” I cannot find an answer in any of my grammar books.
Best,
Stephanie
Hi, Stephanie.
Thank you for the note and the question.
You could do it like this:
Or you could reword it, something like this:
Or this:
Cheers,
Tara
Thank you, Tara! I appreciate your help!
Helpful indeed.
Thanks Tara for this website. What a great resource!
Hi, should I say/write “Joe’s and my wedding”, “My and Joe’s wedding”, or something else? “Joe and my wedding” sounds wrong. Avoiding this construction seems to demand whole previous paragraphs, yet I routinely avoid it because nothing sounds right. “Jill’s and my car” still sounds the best to me, but I can’t find a rule to support it, or explain why it is correct or incorrect.
Thanks in advance,
Anna
Oops, I’m very sorry, I see that you answered this very question some time ago, and thanks to the great organization of your site, I was able to find your blog post of October 2008 in no time at all. “Sarah’s and my house” and “Joe’s and my wedding” is the pleasing result. Thank you very much!
Thank you, Anna. Very good to hear from you.
Warm regards,
Tara
An even simpler solution is to use “our house” or “our wedding.” One other comment related to multiple postings on this page: the ordering of people in almost any statement of multiple people should be third person, second person, first person; for example, “hers, yours and mine” or “Bob, you and me.” If you follow that rule, half of the question of how to construct the multiple possessive is solved.
Would this be properly punctuated? “I learned that John’s dad’s side of the family live in Texas.”?
Yes, Kira, the sentence you sent is punctuated correctly. John and his dad are not possessing the same thing. John “possesses” his dad, and John’s dad “possesses” his side of the family in Texas.
Cheers,
Tara
so should i say:
WIZARD students or
WIZARD’S students
(wizard is a name of a school)
Thankyou
Hi, Daniela. Great question.
First, this is not a possessive with two nouns. It’s one noun (Wizard) possessing another noun (students). One of my other posts, https://writingtips.wordpress.com/category/parts-of-speech/possessive-noun/, applies to this case.
In brief, though, the rule is to add ‘s to the end of the noun that’s doing the possessing, making Wizard’s students the winner. For some reason, this sounds odd to me, so I would probably either go with Wizard students in spite of the rule, or change the wording to “students of Wizard.”
One other thing to consider. Since Wizard is an unusual name for a school, you may want to remind readers of this by using the full name of the school, as in “students of Wizard College” or “students of “Wizard Academy.”
Cheers,
Tara
Is ‘the groom & best man’s attire correct or should it be the groom’s & best man’s attire?
Thank you for this question, Sheriece. It raised an intriguing issue for me.
According to the online Wiktionary (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/attire), the plural form of attire is attires. I have never come across attires before, but it makes sense to me.
So, since the groom and best man each have their own set of clothing, I suggest using “The groom’s and best man’s attires.”
Cheers,
Tara
Hi
Is this phrase correct?
The child’s relative’s details
This phrase is technically correct, but it raises many questions. What relatives? Mother and father? Siblings? Cousins? Details about what? Please clarify. I’m curious.
Tara
Hi
Thank you for reply. I want to state the issue in a different way.
The child’s father owns a company. Can we say the sentence in this way?
The child’s father’s company.
Thank you
“The child’s father’s company” isn’t a sentence. It’s just the subject, and in order to qualify as a sentence, every subject needs a predicate.
“The child’s father owns a company” is a sentence. “The child’s father” is the subject, “owns a company” is the predicate.
If you’d like more details about “subject” and “predicate,” an easy way to get lots of examples is to search the Internet.
Tara
Been searching everywhere for this rule, thanks!!!!
here groom’s brother is inviting for the wedding and the sentence will be like:
You work, you play
and then, one day…
love just happens!
Antony
invites you to be a witness
——-to one of brother’s lifes’ loveliest——
surprises as
Jennifer
and
Wifred are joined together in reception
on tuesday, the 28th of August ’12
at seven o’clock in the evening
«««address content»»»
need clarity on the sentence highlighted with hyphens (-)
thanx
Hi, Antony.
Thank you for your question about this wonderful event.
First, here are a couple of things you may want to add to the invitation:
*The date, time, and address of the wedding (the invitation only gives the date and time of the reception)
*The address of the reception
*Jennifer’s and Wilfred’s last names
*So that you will know how many people to plan for, an RSVP: A request for a response to the invitation, along with contact information
As for the possessive with two nouns, I don’t think it’s necessary. Here’s how I would word the invitation:
Antony, Wilfred’s brother, invites you to witness one of life’s loveliest surprises as Jennifer and Wilfred are joined together.
Wedding: Date, Time, Address
Reception: Tuesday, the 28th of August 2012, seven o’clock in the evening, Address
Cheers,
Tara
What is the correct way to state: Both men’s and women’s gloves are sold upstairs. And the second one; That blue car with white stripes is theirs. Thanks
I love how precise the help you provide us struggling writers with is!
Could you please help me out with this mind-boggling dilemma:
I wish to mention two parties in a single sentence:
1) Peter’s father
2) Peter’s father’s grandnephew
Which of the following should the sentence be?:
a) It is Peter’s father and grandnephew.
b) It is Peter’s father and his grandnephew.
c) It is Peter’s father and his father’s grandnephew.
d) It is Peter’s father and Peter’s father’s grandnephew.
Unfortunately, I do not know the name of Peter’s father and hence am not able to write simply “Pete and his grandnephew”.
Thank you for your help! It is definitely much appreciated.
In order to get anywhere with this dilemma, you need to come up with a complete sentence, which consists of a both a subject and a predicate.
What you have sent is the subject: Peter’s father and the grandnephew of Peter’s father. Add the predicate, and things will be more clear.
Examples:
Peter’s father, and a grandnewphew of Peter’s father, are leaving for Europe tomorrow morning.
Or you may want to put it like this:
Peter’s father and one of Peter’s distant cousins are leaving for Europe tomorrow morning.
I hope this helps.
Cheers,
Tara
Sorry if I missed an example of this… I have a sentence where we discuss a man named Bob whose father has family photos. I had written, “We were trying to locate Bob’s father’s pictures during that visit.” (The pictures are owned by the father; Bob is his son.) Thanks!
Hi, Joe.
This is good. Another option, to clarify “during that visit”:
Cheers,
Tara
What about two possessives using or? I want to write “you may contact the bride or groom’s parents…” At first I thought it might be the same as “and” and should be “the bride’s and groom’s parents” but I was wondering if the “or” made a difference? Thanks!
Unless the bride and groom are committing incest at a very high level, the proper usage is as follows:
Another option:
The deciding factor is whether or not the bride and the groom have the same parents.
Remember the rule:
Cheers,
Tara
Hello!
What if one of the subjects is me?
For example, I want to talk about how my father and I are opening up our new car repair shoppe.
Would I say “My father and mine’s shop?” “My father and I’s shop?” Both sound terribly wrong. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
Just leave it as it is, John from the north. This is a perfectly fine, clear, and grammatically correct sentence: “My father and I are opening up our new car repair shoppe.”
Tara
Thanks for this. Where in the Chicago manual did you find this rule? I have the 16th edition, and I haven’t been able to find it. Thanks!
It’s in the 15th edition.
Cheers,
Tara
Thanks, do you know which section?
Have i punctuated the below sentence correctly? If not, can you advise me please. Thank you
This week’s managers’ meeting has been rescheduled.
Please forgive the delay! Somehow, I missed your comment.
Short answer: yes, the sentence you asked about is fine. It would also be correct like this:
Cheers,
Tara
Hi Tara
Thank you for your response; cheers 🙂
(Thankful) I am happy to give my comment on this page. Because, it actually lit and showed me the way out of my doubts, on the correct usage of the “possessive” in relation to two “nouns” in a sentence.
What actually induced me to look it up, was when an uncle asked me to text him my parents’ cell phone numbers. And that actually got me caught in the web of using the (ibid:) “possessive” that way.
After sending it, I began to have doubts about my expression therein. Although, in the back of my mind, my subconscious assured me that I was correct in my grammar. But, the other me, was simply a doubting Thomas, in order to reconcile all this, I decided to look it up (via google). Thereafter, I furthered my search that ultimately brought me to this oasis (saving website).
(This site) Thank you so much for being in existence. Especially, for saving me from “doubts”. Thanks.
Neat and clear. Excellent job!
Very much appreciate your clear explanations!
Tossing out another one for you…
—————–
One last item for both Tom (Tom’s?) and Jerry’s consideration.
—————–
Thanks in advance for your help!
Hm. Interesting. After some consideration, my vote is for “One last item for both Tom and Jerry’s consideration.” This because there is just one item for consideration.
Best,
Tara
Because it is 2 people’s consideration and therefore 2 separate considerations it would be Tom’s and Jerry’s consideration.
Sent from my iPhone
>
Actually, in that case it would be “Tom’s and Jerry’s considerations.”
Cheers,
Tara
How do i write this phrase using possessive nouns : the house of Mary’s mother ?
Is it correct to say Mary’s mother house ?
It would be Mary’s mother’s house, and it sounds really awkward! But so does “the house of Mary’s mother.”
Easier and less awkward in a complete sentence:
Cheers,
Tara
Hi.
What about If two people with the same name (ex: Walker), say father and son, possess the same thing?
Should it be Walker’s idea or Walkers’ idea?
Thanks!
I’d choose “The Walkers’ idea.”
Cheers,
Tara
I have one that one of the earlier responses didn’t get–if the two people in the sentence are possessing the same thing? The bride’s or groom’s parents above doesn’t quite get to that because it’s two sets of parents.
Example: The system will allow you to monitor your son’s or daughter’s class attendance.
What do you do in a sentence like that with an “or” not an “and” and one thing to possess? Son’s just sounds weird to me. Son or daughter’s feels more natural. But it might feel natural because I’ve been saying it wrong for years.
I appreciate your help. Thank you!
First, don’t worry too much about being right or wrong. Just say what feels right to you.
I still prefer “son’s or daughter’s class attendance.” My reasoning is that it’s unlikely that the son and daughter are in the same class. Unless, perhaps, they are twins.
Cheers,
Tara
Can I say my son’s friend’s mother? Is that grammatically correct since it is showing two different relationships? That of my son’s friend and that of the friend’s mother?
Seems grammatically correct, but I’d avoid it like the plague. How about saying what you want to in a complete sentence? For example, you might say, “My son has a friend whose mother is the director of a worldwide nonprofit corporation.”
Cheers,
Tara
Hello. Sometimes it is required in court to begin the title of a document with the designation of the party that is making the filing (e.g., plaintiff’s, defendant’s, petitioner’s). In many cases, there are multiple parties with the same designation. To make it clear, for example, which defendant is filing a document, I’ll use a title like “Defendant’s, ABC, Inc., Motion to Dismiss.” Other attorneys will title that document “Defendant, ABC, Inc.’s, Motion to Dismiss.” or “Defendant’s, ABC, Inc.’s Motion to Dismiss” (while others disregard the commas, and some don’t even bother with the apostrophes). I’d really like to know the correct way to use commas with possessive nouns. Is there a correct way to do this?
Thanks for the note, Scott, and for your wish to be clear.
Apostrophes can create confusion. In this case, I’d choose “Defendant ABC Inc.’s Motion to Dismiss” or even “Defendant ABC Inc. Motion to Dismiss.”
Note that “Defendant’s ABC Inc. Motion to Dismiss” is incorrect, as it indicates that the defendant possesses ABC Inc.
Does this make sense to you?
Best,
Tara
How do you re-write the phrase to show the correct possessive form on this sentence : the only sister of Andy and Jared
Hi, SYL. This is easier if you make it a complete sentence, as follows:
Cheers,
Tara